Gunsite vs. Tigerswan, part 2
This is part 2 of my comparison between Gunstite and TigerSwan. Part dealt with doctrine, and can be found here. Part 2 will deal with the class itself.
In some ways, comparing Gunsite 250 and the TigerSwan introductory pistol course is an apples-and-oranges comparison. 250 is a 5-day course, TigerSwan is a one day course. Having said that, there are some notable comparisons.
Gunsite begins with the school drills. The Gunsite basic drills are:
3 yards, 1.5 sec, 2 shots COM, from the holster
5 yards, 2 sec, 2 shots COM, form the holster
10 yards, 5 sec, 2 shots COM, from the holster
15 yards, 7.5 sec, 2 shots COM, kneeling, from upright and from the holster
25 yards, 10 sec, 2 shots COM, rollover prone, from upright and from the holster
Obviously, since the drills include kneeling and rollover prone, that kind of implies that the school teaches kneeling and rollover prone. Gunsite also teaches turns and some barricade work and use of cover. Gunsite begins with dry-fring, and then rapidly progresses to timed fire through the school drills. 25 yards is the furthest shot, and it is from the prone. Gunsite also teaches some multi-shot drills, including the Dosier drill and the El Presidente drill. The class also includes four different simulators (shoot-house exercises) and a night shoot.
The TigerSwan course is, necessarily, a little simpler. Without the simulators, I would put the Gunsite training at two and a half days versus one day at TigerSwan. Still, they manage to get in dry fire, basic drills, draw from the holster, and getting two well placed hits on target by the end of day one. They also teach basic malfunction drills. Not bad for a one day course.
The major difference from day one is that Gunsite emphasizes “good enough” accuracy (A zone hits from the distance above) combined with more complicated drills, footwork, etc, whereas TigerSwan emphasizes perfect accuracy from the beginning, and only then moves on to the more complicated skills. Students see rapid progress in their marksmanship. I was making 6 out of 10 10 ring hits at 25 yards. Anyone who has seen me shoot will tell you that is nothing short of amazing for me. Now that I have a solid base, I’m ready to start on speed.
The student/instructor ratio is higher at Gunsite. We had 2 instructors for 11 students at TigerSwan. I’d like to say that Gunsite was 4 for 12. Despite that, I didn’t feel like there was not enough feedback; Paul and Brian caught me making mistakes enough to say that these guys didn’t miss a beat.
Gunsite runs a hot range from the first moment you step on the line. TigerSwan runs a cold range in the morning, and transitions to a hot range in the afternoon. The range at TigerSwan is a little looser than they are at Gunsite, in the sense that because Gunsite adds the clock early on, drills are pretty much synchronous. Everyone does the same thing at the same time. At TigerSwan, it was not uncommon for a drill to start and have a shooter join the drill mid-way through. Both schools have high levels of range safety, and I was completely comfortable with the safety of both schools.
At the end of the day, both schools offer something different. Having been through Gunsite 250 and 350, I can say that they offer top notch instruction. TigerSwan managed to perfect my marksmanship to a level that I didn’t think was possible. I can’t wait to take the TigerSwan two day tactical class, if for no other reason than to broaden my experience. Gunsite offers more simulators, and does a great job teaching you to shoot under stress. From a financial perspective, Gunsite it worth the money, even including airfare, hotel, and car rental. TigerSwan, at $200 and change for the day, is simply ridiculous. It would be worthwhile at two or three times the price.
I’ve loved my experience at both schools, and I wouldn’t trade anything for the experience I’ve gained at both. As an armed citizen, I feel that it’s my duty to continuously improve my shooting skills, and so I will continue to maintain an annual training budget. Plus, gun school is just plain fun!
Gunsite vs. TigerSwan: Part 1
I wanted to talk a little bit about some of the differences between my experience at Gunsite and TigerSwan. I’m going to break this up into two articles: one on doctrine, and one on training.
Gunsite was born out of the doctrine of Col. Jeff Cooper. Col. Cooper began hosting shooting competitions in the late 50′s in an effort to develop the skills and techniques that would allow one to out hits on targets as fast as possible. At the time, conventional thinking regarding fast shooting was a quick draw followed by one handed shot from the hip. (Take a look at cowboy movies of the time period for some good examples.) Over time one competitor, Jack Weaver, began to dominate the competition. His technique was markedly different from that of his competitors. Cooper and others refined this technique, and it evolved into what Cooper called the “Modern Technique of the Pistol.” The technique comprised the following elements:
- The eponymous “Weaver Stance” — A two-handed grip, with the pistol brought to eye-level. The strong hand pushes the pistol forward, the weak had pulls back. This “isometric tension” is intended to help control recoil and eliminate movement.
- The “flash sight picture” — With a flash sight picture, the shooter brings the pistol on target, then check’s alignment with the use of the sights. The focus is on the front sight, not on the target.
- The “surprise break” — under the surprise break, the shooter is not consciously aware of the precise moment of when the pistol will discharge . Rather, the shooter focuses on keeping the sights aligned and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun discharges. The shooter follows through to ensure proper sight alignment until the bullet leaves the barrel.
The “Modern Technique” was developed out of competition shooting. TigerSwan’s technique was also developed out of competition shooting, as well as the doctrine of our “high speed low drag” military shooters. TigerSwan has had 50 years of incremental development in their technique. From a technique perspective, the two schools are very similar. However, there are some notable differences.
While the Gunsite uses the Weaver technique, with an even grip and push/pull isometric tension, the TigerSwan technique uses a grip with an extreme thumb forward hold on the weak hand. This brings more of the weak hand’s palm in to support the strong hand. Whereas Weaver describes a 60/40 grip strength between the weak and and strong hand, TigerSwan calls for the strong hand to be “a firm handshake” and the weak hand as strong as possible.
The TigerSwan grip feels a little weird at first (ok, it feels a LOT weird at first), but as the day wore on, I had gotten used to it. It has at least one tremendous advantage over the traditional Weaver: it us much easier to index your hand on the gun. After you get past the initial feeling of weirdness, you can feel right away whether or not your hands are in the right position. There is also a lot less movement possible in your wrists, simply because your are already at your full extension.
A second departure that I noticed as that while the Modern Technique is a heritage of the 1911 pistol, the TigerSwan technique is very much a product of modern, polymer framed service pistols. This is evident in subtle ways. Where Gunsite teaches a five count draw (Grip-Clear-Click-Smack-Look), emphasizing the function of the 1911′s manual safety (“Click”), TigerSwan teaches a simpler three step draw. Also, the slow fire drills are 10 round drills, rather than the Gunsite drills which were sort of based around the 7 round 1911.
All in all, I believe that TigerSwan has done a great job of modernizing the Modern Technique. Next, we will take a look at the schools from a training perspective.
Gunsite offering Glock class
I just received an email from Gunsite:
Glock 25th Anniversary 250 Pistol Class
October 10-14, 2011, Gunsite Academy and GLOCK will be joining forces to host a week-long “GLOCK 25th Anniversary 250 Defensive Pistol Class.” The class, which is being held in celebration of GLOCK’s 25th Anniversary in the United States will be held at Gunsite Academy.
During the “all GLOCK week” shooters will participate in standard Gunsite tactical curriculum with the focus specifically on training with a GLOCK pistol.
Supplementary to the tactical training, shooters will be given the opportunity to train with certified GLOCK armorers, as well as learn the history of GLOCK.
You do not want to miss this event. It is the premier Industry/Gunsite training event. The weather is remarkable here in the high Sonoran Desert in mid October, perfect for training.
The GLOCK Shooting Sports Foundation (GSSF) and the GLOCK Armorer Group will be on hand providing demonstrations and tips for those who are interested during the course of the week. Glock has provided many Glock giveaways for this event, including Glock pistols- it is a Glock Christmas in October.
Cost for the class is $1428.00 or
Special for this class, tuition, ammo and a Gen4 Glock 19 is $2300.
This is a $3500 value, sign up today.To register for the class, or for more information, please visit www.gunsite.com or email coordinator@gunsite.com.
I can’t recommend this experience highly enough. Gunsite 250 was, for me, literally a life-changing experience. This is a great deal on a fantastic class.
Sen. Klein off to gun school
The blogosphere is abuzz about the story of Arizona State Senator Lori Klein, who is under fire for allegedly pointing her LCP at a reporter.
When I read the story, I shot an email to Jane Anne Shimizu, the PR director at Gunsite suggesting that they might want to offer the Senator a spot in one of their 250 classes. Jane Anne replied that they did just that, and that the Senator has accepted the offer.
Good job, Gunsite, and good job, Senator.
Edited to add:
Much has been made of what Sen. Klein did or didn’t do; whether she swept the reporter or whether he did it to himself. No matter what, the bottom line is that even a few yars ago I can’t imagine that an elected politician would be talking about the fact that they carry a gun for self defense. Self defense is mainstream. Good for Sen. Klein for taking the next step down that road.
A note from Gunsite
My buddy Terp just got back from a Gunsite 350 class. He dropped me a note:
Well, I am back from 350. It is an intense training course, that’s for sure. Still a good time, but very intense. We fired over 1500 rounds in four and a half days. I did bring my GLOCK 21, which is the full-size .45. I had some failures to return to battery, and light primer strikes (probably due to the pistol not locking up fully), that Cory Trapp could not diagnose or fix. I used it for the training, though, and at least did not have a catastrophic, pistol-disabling failure, like last time. I had a new crew of instructors, Charlie McNeese, Ed Stock, and Jay Tuttle. They were all good, as expected. I did visit with Mrs. Cooper again, just to pay my respects, as she is such a warm and caring person and again invited the class to the Sconce on Friday. Although I wasn’t able to win the shootoff this time (an incredibly fast “kid” who lives near Gunsite and has taken a bunch of classes won, and deservedly so) I did get another Expert rating, along with the gold raven pin. New twists in 350: more room clearing exercises, a force-on-force scenario, and a 35 yard prone shot added to the school drill. If you do go to 350, you’ll enjoy it, I have no doubt. Take care, stay in yellow, and stay safe!
Terp
Terp is a fantastic shooter….he was the high shooter in my 250 class, and earned an expert rating in both classes.
I’m super jealous, Terp. I can’t wait for next April.
Guest Post: Visiting the Sconce
After the end of our Gunsite class, we were invited to visit Mrs. Cooper in her home. One of my fellow Gunsite students, JT, wrote this excellent reflection on the experience:
At the conclusion of our week long training at Gunsite, the entire class was invited to the residence of Mrs. Cooper–I shan’t call her Janelle without a direct and personal invitation to do so–for refreshments.
A gaggle of dusty, hot and tired students trudged unceremoniously up to the home built by Gunsite’s founder, the late Colonel Jeff Cooper. We were warmly greeted by Mrs. Cooper, and welcomed to look around. Mrs. Cooper was as gracious and charming a hostess as I’ve ever seen. To her, class and warmth and grace come naturally.
The views from the deck are priceless, stretching out over the vast expanse of valley to distant mountains. But the real majesty of this house lies inside.
A cross between a museum and library, gun vault and shrine, the interior of the Sconce (meaning a small, detached fort), as Mrs. Cooper’s home is known, is as magnificent as the views outside.
Col Cooper had a vast library of books, to match his varied interests, and a few singular mementos. Of course, it almost goes without saying that trophies taken around the world and firearms–each with some particular significance–were there, as well; I will leave them for others to describe in greater detail.
Photographs of Col. and Mrs. Cooper, along with other family members, line the walls and shelves. Mrs. Cooper is, by any measure, a devoted spouse and her love for her husband is evident in almost every thing she does. The attention she devotes to his memory borders on worship. Yet, who can blame her? Col. Cooper was, in many respects, larger than life, and a true American hero.
The entire home is, in effect, a tribute to Col. Cooper, from its site to its construction to its contents.
But perhaps the greatest tribute to the late Col. Cooper is not some object or saying or slogan or view, no matter how spectacular. The greatest tribute to Col. Cooper is that his legacy of preparing–one class at a time–Gunsite students to defend themselves and their loved ones from violent criminals is both ongoing and enduring.
Thanks, JT, for the thoughtful post!
Gunsite Day 1
This is part of my series on my Gunsite experience. Part 1 is here.
Lewis and I woke up early on Monday morning to the jazzy music of his cell phone alarm. (Seriously, buddy…5 am? Is that truly necessary?) We both got geared up. I had not brought my range bag due to space limitations, so I stuffed my backpack with everything I thought I would need. Eyes, spare eyes, ears, spare ears, gloves, sweatshirt, gun belt, spare gun belt, two kinds of holsters…I think I over packed a little.
We were not exactly sure where we were going, so we left early. After a few wrong turns (turn left. No, your other left.) we managed to find our way to the road that we needed to be on. We had a little spare time, and so we decided to stop at a reliable breakfast choice: McDonalds. Unfortunately, the woman in front of us in the drive-through must have ordered food for the entire population of Chino Valley, because it took her like 15 minutes to get her food. This put us back behind schedule. We found the turn we were looking for, and got onto West Gunsite Road.
West Gunsite Road is a four mile or so dirt road that leads to the school. On this particular day, it was soaked through with the prior night’s snowfall, and was essentially all mud. Following Lewis’ advice for driving in mud (“Whatever you do, don’t stop!”) got us up to the school, and we got the first glimpse of the gates.
Clearly this picture was not taken on the day in question, but you get the idea.
We made our way to the classroom and got ready to begin.
We entered our classroom, and a pile of paperwork was waiting for us. It was what you might expect…guns are dangerous, don’t sue us, if you commit safety violations we are shipping your ass home.
The demographics of the class were interesting. The class consisted of twenty people, sixteen male and four female. We had two husband and wife couples. I think we had four doctors, three nurses, four computer geeks, two Greek bodyguards, and one DEA agent.
Our rangemaster, Jerry, introduced himself as well as his fellow instructors: LaMonte, Chuck, and Hutch. All of them had impressive resumes, including police experience, SWAT experience and other interesting things. One was a former SEAL. Each of these guys were very professional, very friendly, simply excellent teachers. With such a impressive backgrounds, you would expect them to perhaps be a little intimidating. Nothing could be further from the truth. They were amazingly helpful, and very perceptive on how to correct shooters. More on that later.
The classroom lectures began with a quick history of Gunsite and the goals of the school. Gunsite does not shy away from the fact that they are a gun fighting school. Make no mistake…these guys are teaching you how to defend your life with a firearm.
The class quickly moved into the basics of shooting. Gunsite does not assume any prior experience with firearms. Maybe another way to say it is that they want to get everyone on the same page. Therefore, we began with the four rules of gun safety:
- All guns are always loaded.
- Never let the muzzle cover something you are not willing to destroy.
- Keep your finger off the target until your sights are on the target.
- Always be sure of your target.
These rules are posted everywhere at the school. And I mean everywhere. These guys take their safety seriously.
We also reviewed the proper sight picture, how to press the trigger and how to load and unload the gun. This last part was important. Gunsite runs a hot facility. At the end of each range session, we are told to “put the gun in the condition you want it in when you leave the range.” The school doesn’t particularly care what condition that is, loaded or unloaded. The only rule is that the gun stays in the holster until you are at the range. I was very impressed that attitude, and I never saw any example of unsafe gun handling.
And with that, maybe an hour and a half into the class, we were off to the range.
Five days at Gunsite-Prologue
As the plane touched down in Phoenix, I felt a flash of excitement and anticipation. It had been three years in the making, but I was really doing it! I was going to Gunsite!
The story begins last December. I had wanted to make it out to Gunsite for a few years, but with a small child at home it had been a bit of a challenge. I had gotten some downtime, and had some spare cash, and decided that I would finally make it out to Gunsite for a class: 250 Defensive Pistol. I didn’t want to go alone, and so I asked a friend and colleague if he wanted to join me. Lewis had recently begun shooting, and I suspected he might be interested. His email came back in about 30 seconds: absolutely!
I called Gunsite, and spoke to a very nice woman named Jane Ann. She answered all of my questions, and emailed me an application. This presented the first hurdle. Gunsite requires either a concealed carry permit or a statement from local law enforcement that you have no criminal history in order to register. I had my CCW permit, but Lewis did not. Jane Ann said no problem…just bring it with you when you come. Lewis applied for his Washington CCW, and had it two weeks later. (Gotta love Washington…no class required, and very quick turnaround.)
The next few weeks were dedicated to getting geared up. The first decision I needed to make was which pistol to go through class with. I ended up deciding on my Smith and Wesson M&P in .40SW. My M&P compact is one of my regular carry guns, and I thought that would be a good place to start. I decided to bring the full-size M&P, though…no need to be a masochist. Gunsite requires 1,000 rounds of ammo for the class, so I knew that we would be shooting a lot over the week. I thought that the compact would be a bit of a handful for that much shooting. Lewis also went with the M&P, but in 9mm. I talked him into letting me bring him my wife’s full size 9mm rather than him trying to go through the class with his compact. (He thanked me later.)
As I mentioned, Gunsite requires 1,000 rounds of ammo, as well as 50 rounds of frangible for their shoot houses. I decided to buy the ammo directly from Gunsite rather than running around trying to find it locally. If you want to bring your own ammo, you can. You can even have it shipped to Gunsite ahead of time so you aren’t traveling with all that weight. Good thing, too…1,000 rounds of 180 grain .40 weighs almost 26 pounds! You can also ship your gun ahead of time, although I elected to travel with mine. Gunsite also has rental guns available, as well as an on-site pro shop that carries several major brands if you want to buy your gun at the school. They sell basically at cost, and if you are renting and decide to buy, they rebate your rental fee. More than one of the people in my class showed up with the wrong gun and ended up buying replacements, but more on that later.
I had most of the other things I needed: eye protection, hearing protection and appropriate clothing. I’ll deviate from the time line here and make a few gear recommendations. Electronic hearing protection is mandatory. It’s tough to hear range commands without it. I brought the Peltor TacSport muffs, and they worked very well. Eye protection: either bring a couple of pairs or ones with interchangeable lenses. Amber lenses worked well for most things, but it is the desert, and you can get a lot of glare and might want to switch to dark lenses. I’d also recommend shooting gloves. I used Pro-Aim 3/4 finger gloves with the braces removed.
Finally, the day arrived, and I got ready to fly from Charlotte to Phoenix. I had never flown with a firearm before, and I wanted to make sure that I left plenty of time at the airport for the inevitable hassle. I arrived two hours early. I needn’t have bothered. Time elapsed from arrival to air-side: about 6 minutes. It couldn’t have been easier. I went to the counter, told the attendant that I needed to declare some firearms, showed her the pistols, signed a form that they were unloaded, locked the case, and was on my merry way.
After a long flight, I arrived in Phoenix and met up with Lewis. He was brimming with excitement, and brought me a present: a black leather cowboy hat! I felt very dressed for the occasion. The bags and guns came though baggage claim without delay, and we started the long drive up to Prescott. It took about two hours. We stayed at the Residence Inn in Prescott. Prescott is about a 35 minute drive from Gunsite, which is located between Chino Valley and Paulden. There are options that are closer, but we thought the Residence Inn made sense. Rooms are suites with kitchens and a small living room. There are also more dining options in Prescott than there are closer to Gunsite.
It was snowing as we checked into the hotel, and I hoped that we would not be spending the next day on the range in the snow. I was exhausted from the trip, but pumped and excited for the big day tomorrow.
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Do your part!
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